Cyborg 2-A ✅ shared a comment of this post/conversation

Matthias/E via Oliver (currently deactivated)

Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:09:20 -0400 from [ˈloma] | Friendica

Ein schöner Artikel, in dem @mike von seinen Werdegang und den Anfängen föderierter Kommunikation, bis hin zum #Fediverse erzählt.

Ein muss für alle, die einen tieferen Einblick in die Entstehungsgeschichte erhalten wollen.

Got Zot — Mike Macgirvin on building your own apps and protocols

Image/photo

Today, we go in-depth with Mike, a senior developer in the federation who has developed much of his own platform from scratch.

Matthias/E

Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:01 -0400 from [ˈloma] | Friendica

Spannend ist natürlich auch sein Ausblick und seine fundierte Kritik!

Oliver (currently deactivated)

Mon, 17 Oct 2022 09:47:43 -0400 from microhive

Das ist von 2017 ... inzwischen ist ja schon wieder einiges passiert.
(streams) als "no branded" Netzwerk zum Beispiel. Mike ist immer in Bewegung

Matthias/E

Mon, 17 Oct 2022 09:52:40 -0400 from [ˈloma] | Friendica

Der größte Teil der Kritik ist weiterhin aktuell. Zumindest nach meiner Erfahrung & Erleben.

Roland Häder

Tue, 18 Oct 2022 08:38:53 -0400 from friendica

@Matthias/E Ich faende es gut, wenn (foerderierte) Social-Media-Software nicht nur ein Protokoll spricht, meistens #ActivityPub , sondern mehr, damit es sich mit mehr verbinden kann. Aber davon abgesehen hege ich noch eine ganz andere Kritik, auch and Friendica aber anderer Art.

Wer noch immer nicht - oder sehr wenig - mit Objekten programmiert und seine Daten noch immer per array von Funktion zu Funktion uebergibt, muss sich nicht wundern, dass dies nicht gerade typenstark ist und damit auch "Schrott" uebergeben werden kann. Da hilft es auch wenig, die Variable $user zu nennen, mehr eher waere ein Interface oder wenigstens Klasse User $userInstance hier angebrachter. Auch der nicht direkte Zugriff auf die Klassenattribute, sondern sauber per Getter/Setter ist noch immer viel Mangelware.

Ich moechte keines Falls diese Fingerzeig-Mentalitaet hier aufkommen lassen, #Hubzilla , so sehr seine Anhaenger es auch lieben, hat leider eine Codestruktur, die ich mir angesehen habe und mich an meinen alten Mailer-Code erinnert fuehle und nicht an eine moderne Software. Ja, auch wenn ich meine eigene Software natuerlich liebe, keine Frage, kritisiere ich sie dennoch. Dies ist ja keine Ablehnung, sondern berechtigte Kritik.

Matthias/E

Tue, 18 Oct 2022 08:54:00 -0400 from [ˈloma] | Friendica

@Roland Häder Genau um diesen konstruktiven Austausch geht es aus meiner Sicht in dem Artikel. WIR sind das Netz und müssen gemeinsam die beste Möglichkeit suchen, wie ein stabiler, fehlerfreier und geschützter Austausch von Daten sichergestellt wird.

Das kann auch Vorschläge beinhalten, wie einzelne Lösungen intern mit den Daten umgeht.

mike

Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:12:46 -0400 from y

I've spend decades working with both code styles. I use Symfony/Doctrine/React at work. The truth is - both programming styles suck. The object model is better for working on large teams and to the detriment of end users. Functional programming is more personal and better for smaller projects and prototypes. I'm not a software evangelist.

Some of my code is nearly 20 years old and came from a repository  where I build quick prototypes. Mistpark - which became Friendica, was a prototype. Redmatrix which became Hubzilla, was a prototype. Zap, which became (streams) was a prototype. You get the idea.

I build these and give them away and work on newer decentralisation problems which arise.  My life's work is solving decentralisation problems, not building apps for the consumer marketplace. If you don't like it, you can either improve it or use something you do like. I don't really care. I'm not selling anything.

I'm providing ideas and working on solutions to big problems - like decentralised identity, nomadic identity and data resilience,  as well as decentralised permissions.

Interestingly Twitter's Bluesky has just come out with a proposal for something that works a lot like Zot - a prototype protocol I came up with 10-11 years ago based on my experience with Friendica and the early fediverse -- and which nobody else in the fediverse was interested in pursuing. The stuff I'm working on now is stuff you may or may not see in the fediverse in another decade. I'm using it today because I don't want to wait for some mega-corporation to build it for consumers.

Cheers.

Cyborg 2-A ✅

Tue, 18 Oct 2022 18:17:58 -0400 from libertious

Maybe i'll check out Bluesky when there's no signup or registration. I read it's blockchain based so they will have control of the tokens anyway. Like handshake, which is a big fat nothing.

Cyborg 2-A ✅

Thu, 20 Oct 2022 04:11:25 -0400 last edited: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 04:11:55 -0400 from libertious

Their code is on gh, the signup is for people who want to use their app thingy when it's avail. I don't see any ref to blockchain, i don't remember where i read that.

But it's typescript/npm. I don't mess with that stuff (but i used to say the same about Java)

https://github.com/bluesky-social

mike

Tue, 18 Oct 2022 23:40:11 -0400 from y

I mentioned in 2010 that cross domain single sign-on is coming to the web and you can either help us do it with self-sovereign identities or you're going to be owned. People laughed. That'll never happen - and what good is single sign-on anyway? And we don't like the way you write code. It's 2022 and Google and others are about to do away with passwords on the web. But you'll need to register with a trusted identity provider...

Roland Häder

Wed, 19 Oct 2022 09:07:56 -0400 from friendica

@Mike Macgirvin @Matthias/E And now I'm feeling stupid because I just looked into Hubzilla's include directory and not Zotlabs/ ...

Okay, #Hubzilla is very far object-oriented, that's what I was mislead away from and thought it was without any objects/class/interfaces. Still I see a lot invocations to the function q() and with "native" SQL statements and no #ORM like #Doctrine2 is.

No offense here, software evolves and hopefully takes the right turns towards DBMS-independence, means not relaying on the underlying database server implementation.

I can tell you that I can deploy a full-blown JavaEE application with JPA 2.1 (that's a specification), EJB 3.0 and JSF 2.4 on a #SQLite3 database and the same could be deployed on an Oracle cluster or MongoDB with absolute no change to the code. Just make sure that the proper JConnector is in the proper place (where the application server is deployed) and configured as a #JDBC resource and your persistence.xml points to that one. I even don't have to care about if your deploy my EJB project on a JBoss EJB container with #Hibernate as the persistence proivder (comparable to Doctrine) or on a Glassfish with EclipseLink because that has been abstracted away and defined in the JPA specification both implementations must be compliant with the same specifications and as long as I only use javax.persistence it will theoretically work.

Okay, maybe for small one-man-effort projects that is a bit of an overdose, I understand. Yet still I don't have to deal with so many things e.g. Friendica and/or Hubzilla have to deal with, like DBMS-independent code.

Okay, that's my main critic on both software. And sure I will put more efforts into reaching that goal.

mike

Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:10:03 -0400 from y

Mate, I left Friendica a decade ago. I left Hubzilla in 2019. I'm retired from open source and all the associated toxicity.

I can't change what I've already done. If you've got a problem with either project, take it up with the respective communities.

I've got a public domain repository for a fairly basic but useful fediverse server with no branding. I spend an hour or two on it when I'm able and I like it better than any other fediverse server. I don't care if you like it.

Roland Häder

Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:31:49 -0400 from friendica

@Mike Macgirvin Yeah, I get your point here. And I meant no offense towards you. You did a great job "inventing" all of this for us all and on top free of charge. Some people don't see it that way, they take it for granted while it should be appreciated. #Friendica received changes that were politically or ideologically motivated, not for a fixing a bug or resolving a certain problem (e.g. being DBMS-independent). Even here in the #Fediverse are some people who do not appreciate (I do) our work, e.g. calling my changes "little brain farts" or so while I always voted for clear APIs (e.g. returning array on success or false on failure while a thrown exception could do the job more directly).

Sometimes it is better to develop your software (almost) all by yourself and only rely on stable libraries. Feel free to retire from all of this.

mike

Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:45:15 -0400 last edited: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 17:14:49 -0400 from y

Apologies but I think you still missed the point. I don't care about "code". Some people do. Apparently you're one of them. That's OK, but our motivations are entirely different.

I take ideas for things that don't exist today and turn them to reality. How they are implemented and what the underlying code looks like or what technology stack it uses aren't relevant to me. The only thing I care about is that I can clone my account on another server so if somebody forgets to renew the cert or the domain goes away unexpectedly I don't lose my entire social persona. I can go to one of my clones and carry on - and still have all my friends and all my content and all my uploaded photos. I don't get spam, because I control my fediverse inbox and if I don't let you in to it, you can't send me anything. And if I want to only let my family see my family photos, I can do so. - and you won't be able to see them no matter how hard you try.

I don't care if this was written in bash or perl or COBOL or is stored in flat files. I just care that I can do these things.