Streams currently without its lead developer

Fri, 30 Aug 2024 23:49:13 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

Bill Statler wrote the following post Fri, 30 Aug 2024 23:49:12 -0400

Streams currently without its lead developer
You may have seen Mike's post about his retirement from the streams repository, in which he writes:

Streams repository going out of business sale. Everything is half off. Today only.

Cheers.

The lead developer retired. The CEO, CTO, and CFO, the marketing department, engineering, QA, and investor relations were all let go.

The only significant customer-facing change is that tomorrow I'm not getting up at 4:30-5AM and spending 10-16 hours working my ass off for free - in addition to all my other responsibilities and commitments.

Or the day after that...

This was spelled out in the README.md some years ago.

The repository isn't going anywhere. If somebody wants contributor access, let me know. I usually like to have contributors available in multiple timezones, but this software has been so poorly received that this simply hasn't happened.

I'm thinking about what my own plans are. I can see a few different ways forward.

What are your thoughts?

@Bill Statler

chavasaurus

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 00:30:05 -0400 from nómada

Wouldn't necessarily interpret it as "without"

As far as the software goes; currently leaning towards wait and see.

Could just be a slow-down in repo activity. The rest of the fediverse has a long way to catch up anyway.

Are we contemplating full-stop contingencies?

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 05:33:29 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

I'd say it's a matter of fact that Mike has officially (almost) fully dropped his work on (streams). Ironing out its bugs has become too much for him, especially after introducing experimental FEP-ef61 support in something that was officially pronounced stable, that's being used by a few dozen people as daily drivers, and that has only got one dev branch.

I don't think that Mike ceases working on the Fediverse entirely. Not after his announcement to develop the Fediverse of 2030. My prediction is that he'll concentrate on Forte which is the Red to (streams)' Friendica or the Zap to (streams)' Hubzilla. The next big step. If he doesn't have to deal with daily-driving users complaining about bugs all the time, he can set the pace himself.

In practice, if Forte lives on, it will be a great deal more experimental than (streams) and unfit as a daily driver. At the same time, it won't be much different from (streams) to the outside, so there won't be any incentive to set up Forte instances and daily-drive it.

Maybe the introduction of decentralised IDs as per FEP-ef61 to (streams) was part of the plan. If someone is crazy enough to want to set up Forte to have a more advanced daily driver than (streams), and it blows up in their face, there could still be the option to move the channel or even migrate the whole server back to (streams), just like you could crossgrade between Zap, the third Osada, Misty, Redmatrix 2020 and, I think, even Roadhouse.

But now we'll have to see how we can find new maintainers in a user base that's smaller than Hubzilla's user base was in 2018.

citc

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 06:56:30 -0400 from hubzilla

Mike never posts publicly from his channel

Fair enough but the thread url is accessible in public domain

@[zrl=https://streams.elsmussols.net/.well-known/apgateway/did

z6Mkmc3YmgUu5jTyhc6YqC8VjnMwmFtdjFFA45MHTqyBFaA2/actor]Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet[/zrl]

But now we'll have to see how we can find new maintainers in a user base that's smaller than Hubzilla's user base was in 2018.

A return to the constant problem that never seems to be solved. The extant programmers do not appear interested to attract more participants. A pity; good software, poor promotion.

citc

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 04:13:31 -0400 from hubzilla

The post is inaccessible.
It seems that during the past 10, 15 years, Mr Macgirvin has been unable to find similar programmers that share his (good) ideas about safe use of social media. Modern programmers seem to have no value for safety.

Martin G. auf (streams)

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 05:13:26 -0400 from Nomád - Streams CLOSED AFTER SEPTEMBER 30.

The post is inaccessible.

Mike never posts publicly from his channel, only to his immediate connections. Bill had to quote him by copy-pasting.

Bill Statler

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 14:01:33 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

used by a few dozen people as daily drivers

I'm one of those people, and I'm trying to decide what I want to do next.

One option would be to revert to the early-July version of streams, from just before the big FEP-ef61 changes. At this point, streams was fairly stable and mature software. I might be competent enough to keep this running for my own use, maybe with a new branch ("classic"?) for adding simple bug-fixes. (Unknown issue: Can I revert an existing streams instance back that far without breaking it? Or would I need to build a new instance and clone my channels there?)

citc

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 14:04:33 -0400 from hubzilla

Perhaps consider a transfer/return to hubzilla/friendica and concentrate efforts to build a sufficient critical mass there.
Mr Macgirvin has tried many times without success.

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 14:30:46 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

In the cases of Friendica and Hubzilla, that used to be because nobody knew they existed, not even on diaspora*, because there was zero advertisement.

In the case of (streams), it's rather because most of the easy-to-get target audience is already on Friendica or Hubzilla, and they don't see much of an advantage in (streams). Especially Hubzilla users tend to see it as "Hubzilla light" with too many features cut.

Bill Statler

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 14:53:01 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

Hubzilla is the only other option I am considering. Unfortunately it is not currently possible to clone a channel from streams to Hubzilla. I believe I could export/import my connections list and files, but it would be annoyong to lose access to several years of old conversations.

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 15:39:47 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

I would stay on (streams). The repository isn't going anywhere, and the instances will keep on working.

Bill Statler

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 17:19:48 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

Except that some of the streams instances are not working. Giac, in particular, has run into two major problems:

His instance freezes up for 10+ minutes if he sends posts to 20 ActivityPub connections. By process of elimination, there serms to be no explanation other than a streams code change in July.
He created a brand new channel on Rumbly, and it cannot receive comments from anyone.

So despite Mike's heroic bug-squashing efforts, it looks like there are still a few problems thst did not exist before July.

Waitman Gobble

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 18:40:31 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

AFAIK i have not had issues receiving comments here. I had an issue back in January where the easiest solution was to create a new channel

Giac El Vecio

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 18:59:04 -0400 from Unio Diversi Spiritus

Your channel is not just 2 weeks old

Bill Statler

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 19:50:58 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

Yeah, there was a major change in new channels (along with the other July changes, I think).

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 04:29:35 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

Version 24.07.20. On all accounts registered on this version or newer, channels and their content use the FEP-ef61 DID scheme which even Mitra is struggling with, and which is completely alien to the rest of the Fediverse.

New channels on older accounts still use the old format.

Waitman Gobble

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 23:35:42 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

it was back in January, i think it something to do with creating an account early on, possibly before streams, and going through migrations. it originally started on zap.dog. I actually created an entirely new account then and not "just" a channel and that seemed to solve the issues I was having.

Christopher

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 20:38:24 -0400 from forte

That's my plan. Continue with Streams until I can't anymore.

Giac El Vecio

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 17:43:06 -0400 from Unio Diversi Spiritus

Maybe my problem in my site is a corrupted database, but is not easy understand ”why if how"
the new emergency channel is a big problem, I used with and without activitypub, I don't get comments in my posts, and now tested also with my Mitra channel, and nothing, a big communication problem.
So, maybe in this moment is not a good idea to create new channels in streams 🥴

Bill Statler

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 19:55:40 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

Mike has confirmed that Forte is "streams without Zot6 and Nomad. ActivityPub from top to bottom." And: "Still a few rough edges. Clone sync doesn't work at the moment. Whether I ever fix it is unknown at this point."

So as of today, we can't plan on using Forte except as experimental software.

{...dramatic sigh...} Looks like I will finally have to learn the basics of git.

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 04:40:26 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

So these "rough edges" make Forte even more unusable as a daily driver, seeing as nomadic identity is half-broken. If at all, it only makes sense on a personal, single-user, experimental server where clones aren't necessary.

"Half-broken" also due to the rest of the Fediverse. The connection between Forte and Hubzilla will be ActivityPub, and Hubzilla doesn't know FEP-ef61, much less nomadic ActivityPub.

Worse yet, Forte is under a custom copyright license. Whatever happens on Forte, development-wise, might not be allowed to be ported to (streams). So if the community takes over both, it won't have any other choice than to create another experimental (streams) fork in the public domain, use it for further developments and then port changes to both (streams) and Forte, at least for as long as Nomad and Zot6 and therefore (streams) are still needed.

Only if and when Forte should ever become stable, including in conjunction with the rest of the Fediverse (which will require changes in the rest of the Fediverse or project-specific code around FEP-ef61 in Forte), New Year's Eve 2022 can theoretically repeat, (streams) can be abandoned, and moving its instances to Forte can be recommended.

Bill Statler

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 21:20:11 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

Don't tell anyone _{but there was a small streams commit 52 minutes ago}

Waitman Gobble

Sat, 31 Aug 2024 22:36:31 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

I am going to experiment with the possibility of speeding up page loads and reducing server load, try to get some stats on what's happening with posts (i have seen some people mentioning missing posts?) and take a look at the open issues in git to see if there's anything i can do to move them forward.

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 04:54:35 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

If I were the new project leader (which I'm not, and which I don't intend to be because I'm not a dev), I'd suggest the following steps:

Make a new "stable" branch. If we can't do it in the official repository, we need to declare @Bill Statler's fork official for the time being and have it done there. But seeing as the official repository URL is all over the place out there, it'd be better to do it in the official repo.
Make the new branch the default for whenever the repo is cloned, including Yunohost installs.
Revert the "stable" branch to the last release before 24.07.20 when FEP-ef61 DIDs were rolled out.
Port any changes since then that have nothing to do with FEP-ef61 back to the new "stable" branch.

Otherwise we'll end up with loads of new instances that are broken from the beginning because they were set up by people who don't know about the situation.

Also, we should test whether it's possible to revert channels (by cloning them from DID-enabled accounts to non-DID-enabled accounts) and entire instances (by rebasing to pre-24.07.20) from with DIDs to without DIDs.

Bill Statler

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 14:01:37 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

@Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet Cool, that is exactly what I was planning to do for my own personal use. You saved me a lot of time typing.

However, I have no idea what I'm doing, and I don't encourage anybody to make my fork official for anything. I only learned yesterday how to make a new branch in git, and I haven't tried it yet.

I think the best starting point for a 'classic' or 'stable' branch is 'dev' 22f54d23c, which is immediately before the FEP-ef61 merge.

Giac El Vecio

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 14:12:19 -0400 from Unio Diversi Spiritus

If you want to know my problems start in the first week in July

Giac El Vecio

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 08:47:02 -0400 from Unio Diversi Spiritus

Maybe, after adding to the code, it's time to create a new channel, and see if it works now.
It may also be that I chose the worst possible time to create the emergency channel (with my old account) Who is on the latest version?

Bill Statler

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 14:09:43 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

I'm on the latest 'dev' (eb225639c6).

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 07:31:21 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

Looks like K&T has withdrawn its (streams) hosting and stopped maintaining the Fresh theme.

A.min

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 19:09:00 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

Oh, that's disappointing.

K&T Host

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 20:01:44 -0400 last edited: Mon, 02 Sep 2024 23:41:58 -0400 from K&T Host

@Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

The Fresh theme is still being maintained. We want to make it clear that anybody can contribute to, fork, change or otherwise use the Fresh theme code. We will continue to apply bug fixes and open pull requests for issues that we become aware of.

We intend to continue to support Streams to the best of our ability, according to the following requirements:

Streams is still able to be supported by the server infrastructure. Streams currently works with PHP 8.3, so we're expecting server support to last until at least December 31, 2027.
Streams has no known security issues.

In addition, our support page will remain at https://www.knthost.com/streams, with articles updated to reflect any changes.

Since Streams has no official maintainer, we are no longer provisioning new instances of Streams. We hope to provide support for new instances in the future.

Scott M. Stolz

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 00:35:25 -0400 from hubzilla

@K&T Host

The Fresh theme is still being maintained. We want to make it clear that anybody can contribute to, fork, change or otherwise use the Fresh theme code. We will continue to apply bug fixes and open pull requests for issues that we become aware of.

I just looked over the code. Stream's theme system is nearly identical to Hubzilla's. With some minor tweaks, the Fresh theme could probably be ported to Hubzilla pretty easily.

K&T Host

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 00:56:17 -0400 from K&T Host

@Scott M. Stolz

Hello,

Fresh is a fork of RedBasic, so you should be able to copy many of our changes back. Keep in mind that some of the apps in Hubzilla have no counterpart in Streams. So there's no theme code for them. The per-app code would need to be written.

Would you like to see the Fresh theme ported to Hubzilla?

Scott M. Stolz

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 02:14:54 -0400 last edited: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 02:16:39 -0400 from hubzilla

@K&T Host

Would you like to see the Fresh theme ported to Hubzilla?

Yes, I would. I think people would like it, and the more theme choices the better.

And the way Hubzilla works is that if a theme does not have a specific template file, it uses the one in /view/tpl instead. That way themes don't have to rewrite and maintain every single template file themselves. They only have to maintain template files that override the default ones.

Hopefully these default templates are compatible with Fresh, but if you based it on Redbasic, it probably is, for the most part.

K&T Host

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 10:11:36 -0400 from K&T Host

@Scott M. Stolz

Hopefully these default templates are compatible with Fresh, but if you based it on Redbasic, it probably is, for the most part.

We had to change several of the templates in Streams.

Yes, I would. I think people would like it, and the more theme choices the better.

We'll investigate porting Fresh to Hubzilla.

Scott M. Stolz

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 11:38:05 -0400 from hubzilla

@K&T Host

We had to change several of the templates in Streams.

We can collaborate on that. I am working on a set of vanilla Bootstrap 5 templates that, in theory, should be compatible with most Bootstrap 5 themes. Unlike the current default templates, many of which still utilize at least some custom CSS.

If there is a template that needs to be changed, and you don't mind a vanilla Bootstrap 5 version, then we can just drop in one I am working on. You can always change it latter if you don't like the design, but we could roll out a Hubzilla version faster that way.

K&T Host

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 18:37:07 -0400 from K&T Host

Hello @Scott M. Stolz

We took a look at porting Fresh to Hubzilla. We found it would be better to create a fresh version of Fresh based off the Hubzilla RedBasic code. Work on that is happening internally. I'll make sure to post a beta once the code is usable. Please allow a few weeks for the development to happen.

Scott M. Stolz

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 18:43:45 -0400 from hubzilla

@K&T Host Thanks. I appreciate it and I know the community will appreciate it too.