"Streams Classic" branch: Is anyone interested in this (besides me)?

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 20:13:51 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

Bill Statler wrote the following post Sun, 01 Sep 2024 20:13:49 -0400

"Streams Classic" branch: Is anyone interested in this (besides me)?
The last streams repository commit, before the massive FEP-ef61 changes in early July, was 22f54d23c in the 'dev' branch. I believe this was fairly stable. Anyone who wants a "classic" streams experience could install this, and never update.

For my own personal use, I intend to create a branch called 'classic' starting from this point. The reason for a branch would be to add bug-fixes and improvements that Mike (or others) have created for the main 'dev'/'release' branches.

There are many unknowns. At minimum, I would like to be able to clone my channels from a current 'dev' instance to a new 'classic' instance. I assume this is possible but I don't know.

A more scary issue is whether it is possible to downgrade to 'classic' from the current 'dev' or 'release'. My guess: No, there have been too many changes and everything would break. So I will not be trying this myself.

QUESTION: Is there anyone else who might want to use a 'classic' branch?

I have zero experience doing this sort of stuff. I'm willing to make my personal 'classic' branch available, with all sorts of disclaimers about how it will probably make your server catch on fire and take down the entire Fediverse. I'm not comfortable making it an official branch on Mike's streams repository, and I won't consider that route unless there is more than one person who cares about the branch.

Let me know your thoughts.

@Bill Statler

Waitman Gobble

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 23:00:13 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

I just posted some updates to codeberg, there are two issues that cause 500 errors you might check and see if it's in your classic and needs updated. FWIW I don't think these are deal-breaker issues but it's better IMHO not to see 500 errors in the logs. It's looks like basically stuff left over from pre-php8 days i guess, when you could get away with stuff without causing errors, like passing a null or integer instead of an array or string, for example.

Bill Statler

Sun, 01 Sep 2024 23:27:17 -0400 last edited: Sun, 01 Sep 2024 23:28:22 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

@Waitman Gobble - Cool! Where is it that you posted these updates? I must be looking in the wrong places. Never mind, I found your post.

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 03:50:01 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

Unless we manage to get the FEP-ef61 under control anytime soon, which I don't see happen, we'll need a sort of stable, pre-FEP-ef61 "streams classic". But any non-FEP-ef-61-related changes should be ported to it.

As for testing a downgrade from since FEP-ef61 to before FEP-ef61, of course, that shouldn't be done with a daily-driver instance. Maybe an additional, experimental "crash test dummy instance" could be set up for such tests. I'm pretty sure that Mike has gone through a lot of throwaway instances over time.

Waitman Gobble

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 09:27:41 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

I've been running the dev branch for about 10 years i think? Whenever it was Mike split off from hubzilla. Maybe i ran dev then too,i don't remember.

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 12:47:41 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

(streams) is less than three years old, from October, 2021. Ten years ago, Hubzilla itself was still the Red Matrix.

The first Hubzilla forks were Osada and Zap in 2018, and the first Osada only lived for a few months until it was replaced with a new Osada which was forked from Zap. In 2019, both were declared stable before Osada was discontinued again because there was no difference to Zap anymore.

Starting in 2020, the "dev branch" were a third Osada, Mistpark 2020 and Redmatrix 2020, joined by Roadhouse in early 2021.

Giac El Vecio

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:11:26 -0400 from Unio Diversi Spiritus

so, as an amateur, I think that if you want to go back, then you have to do it at the exact moment when the lines of code were introduced starting from the 'nomadic' version of the repository, we are talking about 2 or 3 months ago?

Giac El Vecio

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:18:01 -0400 from Unio Diversi Spiritus

if I understood correctly, 'nomadic' was created and added to the repository precisely to introduce the nomadic activitypub thing (am I wrong?).
so when "we" started introducing part of that code into 'release (stable)' and 'dev', we basically started a process with no return.

Giac El Vecio

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:20:29 -0400 from Unio Diversi Spiritus

but it may also be that I misunderstood, in any case it is better to understand the development sequence well.

Waitman Gobble

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:57:10 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

dev was merged into release about a week ago i think. 'nomadic' has it's own functions that should only talk to other servers that have the nomadic features. The problem with replies and posts happened (it looks to me) if the connection made was AP or zot6, which sets the ids in your database for the contact, then the servers started using nomad. The nomad id does not appear to be in the address book. I think the solution is (probably) to have it get the published AKA ids. Example would be you make a connection to another person with your id 12345 (you can see that id by clicking through your contact list) then a message comes in by the person with ABCDEF, which is not in your contact list. I think the 'audience' function is designed to sort all that out.

Maybe having an option to turn off nomad, as exists for AP (and maybe that's already there, i would have to check) would solve some issue.

I'm not 100% sure about how it works yet, this is what i've seen by looking in the code.

Bill Statler

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 14:59:17 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

@Giac El Vecio

so, as an amateur, I think that if you want to go back, then you have to do it at the exact moment when the lines of code were introduced starting from the 'nomadic' version of the repository, we are talking about 2 or 3 months ago?

Yes. This point is commit number 22f54d23c from the 'dev' branch, dated 2024-06-29 (in my time zone). But I expect there will be a disaster if an instance that is running a recent streams version just reverts to 22f54d23c.

if I understood correctly, 'nomadic' was created and added to the repository precisely to introduce the nomadic activitypub thing (am I wrong?).

Yes, that is how I understand it. The 'nomadic' branch was too unstable for 'dev' for a long time.

In commit fad117958a on 2024-07-02, 'nomadic' was merged into 'dev'.

Then after some bugs got squashed, 'dev' was merged into 'release' v24.7.8 in commit e985344cb0 on 2024-07-07.

so when "we" started introducing part of that code into 'release (stable)' and 'dev', we basically started a process with no return.

Probably. What I don't know is: What changes happened in the database after the merger? Is the database still compatible with the old pre-merger code, or will it explode?

Bill Statler

Wed, 04 Sep 2024 23:55:04 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

QUESTION: Is there anyone else who might want to use a 'classic' branch?

Since nobody has said "yes", I am proceeding on the assumption that 'classic' is just for my own personal use.

But it is available in case anyone is foolish enough to trust me. Please be aware that I just made the first git commit and git push of my entire life a few minutes ago.

(I mean, this is the first time in my entire life I have done git commit and git push. I did not make a git commit of my entire life. That would be pretty cool, wouldn't it? "Last week didn't go well at all -- I'm going to revert to the previous commit of my life.")

https://codeberg.org/billstatler/streams-classic
...is identical to commit 22f54d23c except for the README. I haven't made any other changes yet. I have NOT installed or tested this at all.

https://codeberg.org/billstatler/streams-addons-classic
...is identical to the current official version of streams-addons.

phanisvara (streams)

Thu, 05 Sep 2024 09:01:53 -0400 from phani on streams

from the original post:

Let me know your thoughts.

i'm thinking that (streams) isn't a finished product. while it lastet i was happy to jump on the wagon and use it for what little social interaction i'm up to, but neither is social networking, decentralized and free or otherwise, an important part of my life, nor do i have the time, energy or vision to jump into the project full-time to even attempt to continue (streams) from where @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ left it.

the overwhelming majority of twitter-refugees are happy to run down another dead-end road, mastodon, and convincing them of their mistake feels like preaching to monkeys: some of them look interested, even thoughtful, but in the end they only care for their bananas, i.e., popularity with the rest of the crowd.

another fork from mike's visionary excursions in the social-media world is hubzilla, which found capable maintainers in @Mario Vavti and others, and my account at @phani00 (hubzilla) is still active. i'll continue using that for what goes as my social online life, and will be happy to contribute what little i can by testing or reporting bugs when there's a chance.

i'll replace my server at https://streams.phanisvara.com with a hubzilla instance though. since i don't have a clone of my (streams) account anywhere, @phanisvara (streams) will cease to exist some time soon.

Bill Statler

Thu, 05 Sep 2024 12:35:25 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

@phanisvara (streams) - I agree, I think Hubzilla is the only other good option. I may end up there eventually. It's unfortunate that a streams-to-Hubzilla clone is currently impossible.

I'm not sure what I will do in the short term, but I'll experiment with "Streams Classic". Mike is still adding occasional updates, and Waitman started his own fork with some bug-fixes, so perhaps there will be a debugged streams version in the future. I wish that Mike had been able to attract a few other skilled developers to help with streams, because carrying it all by himself has been extremely difficult.

phanisvara (streams)

Thu, 05 Sep 2024 12:44:10 -0400 from phani on streams

yes, i'm aware of streams classic, or the attempt. but as i understand things, that wasn't the goal. while mike was working on (streams) the goal was shifting, moving to a unified AP approach for nomadic identity. without that, streams classic is more a cut-down version of hubzilla, still talking to different platforms via different protocols.

forte would be that new approach, and i'll keep my eyes open for what's happening with that, if anything at all that is. i definitely understand mike getting fed up with the whole show. it's incredible how much life he's put into all this. my best wishes for whatever else he'll want to spend his time on.

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Thu, 05 Sep 2024 15:19:40 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

"Streams Classic" is basically (streams) immediately before the troublesome FEP-ef61 implementation. It exists for there to be one (streams) that works for now. At least until the FEP-ef61-induced problems are ironed out.

The short-term goal of (streams) itself was to first implement FEP-ef61 decentralised IDs. That was a requirement for the implementation of nomadic identity via ActivityPub which would have been the next stop.

Forte is the step after that: abolishing Nomad and Zot6. I guess it exists for two reasons. One, Mike realised that tinkering around on other people's daily driver (namely (streams)) is dangerous. Two, apparently, FEP-ef61 DIDs caused some confusion between the many IDs that (streams) has to deal with. Mike's solution seemed to have been to fork the "nomadic" branch of (streams) into Forte and then kick Nomad and Zot6 out "prematurely" so they wouldn't stand in the way anymore, especially not in the way of developing nomadic identity via ActivityPub.

Forte was not forked as a daily driver. Far from that. Forte was forked as Mike's new construction site for the time being so he can mess with code without messing with (streams)' code. It was obviously intended to become daily driver material one day and probably still is.

Bill Statler

Thu, 05 Sep 2024 16:43:25 -0400 from Bunny of Doom

"Streams Classic" is basically (streams) immediately before the troublesome FEP-ef61 implementation. It exists for there to be one (streams) that works for now.

Correction: it exists for my personal use, because nobody else has expressed an interest in using it. If anyone else wants to use it at their own risk, that's fine. If anyone else wants to duplicate what I did in their own fork, that's also fine, and I explained what I did.

I created 'classic' because I want two routes forward: official streams, which I am not capable of improving or maintaining, and an older version that is relatively mature software, which I might be able to maintain for my own use.

Scott M. Stolz

Mon, 30 Sep 2024 23:31:09 -0400 from hubzilla

I would be interested running it for a couple reasons.

I am curious about the differences between Hubzilla and Streams.
Some of the stuff in Streams can be ported over to Hubzilla, if @Mario Vavti approves.
I don't want the project to die, and want to see it continue, with or without @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ being active.
At some point I may wish to fork it and create a specialized version of the software, and Streams classic has some features that would be desirable for that purpose (such as calling the software anything you want and its rock hard privacy settings).
I agree with @Mike Macgirvin's philosophy on the importance of free communications tools not owned by corporations, that you can use and modify yourself.

Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 08:48:03 -0400 from Streams at els Mussols

I am curious about the differences between Hubzilla and Streams.

I've wanted to write a kind of hands-on comparison between Hubzilla and (streams) and maybe also add how both compare to Mastodon for those who are rather used to that.

I'm not sure if I should still write it.

Scott M. Stolz

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 09:09:26 -0400 from hubzilla

@Jupiter Rowland's (streams) outlet

I've wanted to write a kind of hands-on comparison between Hubzilla and (streams) and maybe also add how both compare to Mastodon for those who are rather used to that.

I'm not sure if I should still write it.

I think that Mike's work should be documented. So I would say go for it, if you are inclined to do it.

Fri, 08 Nov 2024 14:22:18 -0400 from hubzilla

@Scott M. Stolz

Some of the stuff in Streams can be ported over to Hubzilla, if @Mario Vavti approves.

Data export of channels/profiles is not wholly compatible within hubzilla nor streams

Software development that requires approval of only one person after all these years, is not a serious proposition.