Waitman Gobble shared a comment of this post/conversation

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 16:17:05 -0400 from mastodon

Some half formed thought about how insistence on the GNU/Linux thing isn't just about giving recognition to GNU, it's about the belief that GNU is somehow the only proper path to understanding free software

Daphne Preston-Kendal

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 16:22:44 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett Especially as it is now not only possible but common, at least in containerized environments, to be running Linux with no GNU software at all (Alpine as popular container base OS)

Martin Owens

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 16:24:43 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett

"$Leader caused this to exist" is so old it's written on the inside of 4 thousand year old bricks.

Though to be fair, Free Software wouldn't be in safe hands over at the Linux Foundation. Cartels do a terrible job at looking after consumers.

Mirppc

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 16:36:40 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett oh yea. During SCALE (a linux conference in Los Angeles) the discussion of the use of CDDL code in the kernel cause a ferverious conversation. This was mainly about ZFS.

#?.info

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 16:37:09 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett I don't insist others use it, but use it myself largely to distinguish the kernel from a regular GNU/Linux distribution (or Android.) I think it helps be accurate. Which is why... I'm disappointed it was ever controversial. If anyone other than RMS had suggested it, and the community didn't have so many "Don't bother me with politics unless it's about copying music" types in it, maybe it would be used in that context most of the time.

Space Hobo

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 16:46:43 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett
Yeah, I used to get mad at the "G/L is just RMS ego" argument because it threw away an opportunity to recognise the thankless efforts of early GNU contributors who had no high-profile OS releases to credit them.

Now I'm just happy to let references to That Guy melt in the rain.

Kyle Rankin

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 16:59:44 -0400 last edited: Wed, 10 Dec 2025 17:01:21 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett That insistence ultimately became the beginning of the litmus test for one’s Free Software purity, spawning a purity spiral that many still find themselves diving into. It’s a prime example of a hill FSF dies on that has done far more harm to “the cause” than any good.

Purism ended up being defined by that purity spiral and I think it led to more harm than good there as well.

Gordon Messmer

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 17:02:26 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett I don't think it's about either of those things... GNU is one of numerous Linux operating systems, therefore GNU/Linux is useful to describe a specific subset of all Linux systems.

I think this view is shared by Alpine developers: https://ariadne.space/2022/03/29/it-is-correct-to-refer.html

SpaceLifeForm

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 23:20:09 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett

You will need some GNU userland tools and understand them, even if you want cross-compile a different toolchain.

And, then build your userland from source with your new toolchain. Most people will not try this.

Matthew Garrett

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 23:31:14 -0400 from mastodon

@SpaceLifeForm why? There's a completely functional set of non-gnu tools

SpaceLifeForm

Thu, 11 Dec 2025 01:03:18 -0400 from mastodon

@Matthew Garrett

True that. But there wasn't last century. I think it still helps to learn some history to understand how the overall build process functions.

Few recall that the first assemblers where originally written painstakingly in machine code by hand.

Funny, that you can build make without make.

GNU/翠星石

Thu, 11 Dec 2025 08:33:19 -0400 from pleroma

@Matthew Garrett @SpaceLifeForm GNU tools are only a few GNU packages.

There are inferior implementations to some GNU tools, but I really wouldn't call them functional - those are just garbage and don't even have GNU/Freedom.

SpaceLifeForm

Thu, 11 Dec 2025 20:51:59 -0400 from mastodon

@GNU/翠星石 @Matthew Garrett

It depends. If you are trying to build something small (like embedded), you do not need every bell and whistle in the tool to accomplish your task. See ls --help for example.

Missing functionalty that you do not need reduces the size of your binary footprint. Also reduces exploit pathways.

#KISS

Waitman Gobble

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 23:41:05 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

Linux is a kernel.

Matthew Garrett

Wed, 10 Dec 2025 23:45:19 -0400 from mastodon

@Waitman Gobble accurate, but it's also a word used to describe a common family of operating systems built on top of that kernel

Waitman Gobble

Thu, 11 Dec 2025 02:26:26 -0400 from Get Ready To Rumbly

Ok like Linux Wayland and Linux Gnome etc. it's all Linux

GNU/翠星石

Thu, 11 Dec 2025 08:32:13 -0400 from pleroma

@Matthew Garrett GNU is the only path to free software - as every single other OS project becomes proprietary software every single time.